Who is to blame for sin?

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Argy Lacedom	Who is to blame for sin?		Lead	[-]
Posts: 4136 10/05/09 03:10:31 Camper	Tags : None The ability to consistently choose correctly between any two alternatives (including good and evil) depends on:- a knowledge of what good and evil are, a desire and talent to choose good over evil, sufficient will power to execute that choice. These attributes are, in Christian terminology, gifts from God. We have no say in them. When a person sins he chooses evil over good, indicating that at least one of these gifts is missing. Sin is therefore an indication that god has failed to dispense these gifts in sufficient abundance (or refrained from dispensing them by choice). Humanity is not to blame for the existence of sin, god is. "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company
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Burke		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4876 10/05/09 08:48:05 Camper	Hi Gary, > These attributes are, in Christian terminology, gifts from God. We have no say in them. Gary, you have ridden this horse into the ground. For the 3,000,000,000,000 time, we have FREE WILL to choose good over evil, God has nothing to do with that choice. We are responsible for our actions, not God. You have fallen into modern society's trap of "nothing is ever my fault, it is society's or my upbringing bla-bla-bla." Take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming other for them. > When a person sins he chooses evil over good, indicating that at least one of these gifts is missing. Nothing is missing. God gives us the grace required to do the right thing, but we do not always choose to use it fully if at all. How many parents give their children a proper upbringing, love and support and yet they go wrong. They often say, "where did we go wrong?" The answer is they didn't. Despite their efforts the kid just decided to ignore his parents' gifts and do terrible things. His fault and his alone. For someone who professes to be comfortable in his beliefs you sure expended a lot of energy trying to justify them. Stop flogging the same horse over and over again. You do not believe in free will, we do, so let's agree to disagree and move on to the next item. There, that is my rant for today. Peace,
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Argy Lacedom		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4137 10/05/09 20:47:41 Camper	God gives us the grace required to do the right thing, but we do not always choose to use it fully if at all. Why do we not always choose the right option? Is it that we have insufficient desire? Insufficient will power? Insufficient knowledge? "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company
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Burke		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4879 10/06/09 08:54:34 Camper	Hi Gary, > Why do we not always choose the right option? Because we have the freedom to choose. We come back to the automaton scenario. If we always chose the right option we would either be perfect or automatons and we aren't perfect. > Is it that we have insufficient desire? Insufficient will power? We start out with sufficient desire and will power, but we are creatures of habit. We get into the habit of certain behaviours and our desire and will power to overcome them diminishes with time. The longer we do things the harder it is to change. > Insufficient knowledge? Just to clarify a point. You cannot unknowingly sin. With God ignorance is an excuse. Having said that, it is incumbent upon us to try to determine what is right and wrong. In other words, avoiding knowledge so you can do what you want doesn't fly. Peace,
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Argy Lacedom		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4139 10/06/09 17:25:39 Camper	G'day Bob, > Why do we not always choose the right option? Because we have the freedom to choose. We come back to the automaton scenario. If we always chose the right option we would either be perfect or automatons and we aren't perfect. This is not so much about the freedom to choose as the ability to make the correct choice. Freedom to choose is only the first element in the chain that leads to a wrong decision being made. The three others are (1) we need an understanding of what is good and bad, (2) we need to desire to choose good over bad and (3) we need the will power to execute the choice. If any of these are missing we might, by good luck, choose the right alternative, but we would fail much of the time. This has nothing to do with free will. We start out with sufficient desire and will power, but we are creatures of habit. That doesn't make sense. If we start out with sufficient desire we will get into the habit of choosing the right alternative. By your reckoning choosing the right thing should get easier over time, not harder. "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company Last Edited By: Argy Lacedom 10/06/09 21:59:56. Edited 1 time.
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Burke		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4884 10/06/09 23:02:11 Camper	Hi Gary, > That doesn't make sense. If we start out with sufficient desire we will get into the habit of choosing the right alternative. By your reckoning choosing the right thing should get easier over time, not harder. It makes perfect sense. An analogy if I may: You are going for along hike in the outback. You calculate how much water you will need to complete the trek. You can carry enough water to allow for 1 litre per day. So, you have the desire, the will power and the knowledge to complete the task. The first day out you drink1litre. On day two you are really thirsty so you drink 1.25 litres. What is the harm? Day three you figure an extra mouth full couldn't hurt. Suddenly you are short of water and wonder what happened. Gee, you only cheated a little. Another example. I come from a long line of alcoholics, so I limit the amount of alcohol I consume. After a hockey game I limit myself to one beer, two if we are celebrating a special victory. Once a year I go away with the guys and consume copious amounts of beer and wine. Now, I love a beer, but at home a case of 12 will last me two weeks. If I started to go out with the guys drinking on a regular basis I know I would consume more alcohol even though I know the possible consequences. Even though I have the knowledge, desire and will power i could still become an alcoholic if I am not vigilant. I have the free will to choose the wrong thing. I haven't, yet. Peace,
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Argy Lacedom		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4142 10/07/09 02:47:34 Camper	Hi Bob, Another example. I come from a long line of alcoholics, so I limit the amount of alcohol I consume. ... Even though I have the knowledge, desire and will power i could still become an alcoholic if I am not vigilant. I have the free will to choose the wrong thing. I haven't, yet. I suggest your knowledge is incomplete. You do not know the level of consumption that will turn you into an alcoholic so you try to ere on the conservative side. However, that is no guarantee that you will not succumb. But back to the point. Do you agree that this is not an issue of free will (which is assumed as a given), but a matter of knowledge, desire and will power? These are part of our basic personal natures and we have as much control over them as we have over the colour hair we were born with. "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company
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Burke		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4886 10/07/09 08:51:25 Camper	Hi Gsry, > But back to the point. Do you agree that this is not an issue of free will (which is assumed as a given), but a matter of knowledge, desire and will power? No, it is entirely a matter of free will. The alcoholic has a choice that he must make everyday, drink or not drink. But no man is an island as they say, so he has a mentor who he can call on when times get tough. He may even fall off the wagon at times. The important thing is whether he fights back. One might argue that his addiction has taken over, but he entered the addiction of his ownfree will inthe first place. > These are part of our basic personal natures and we have as much control over them as we have over the colour hair we were born with. Nonsense. Peace,
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Argy Lacedom		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4143 10/07/09 14:17:25 Camper	The important thing is whether he fights back. A matter of desire and will power, surely? As you have implied yourself, some people have a genetic predisposition that can override their desire and will power to abstain. One might argue that his addiction has taken over, but he entered the addiction of his ownfree will inthe first place. Do you honestly think a person would choose to be an alcoholic if they knew the consequences? A matter of knowledge. As I said, it all boils down to knowledge, desire and will power. In the Christian vernacular these are gifts from god. "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company
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Burke		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4887 10/07/09 16:50:47 Camper	Hi Gary, > A matter of desire and will power, surely? But desire is a two-edged sword. I may desire to do the right thing, but I also may desire to enjoy the pleasure of an illicit affair with a beautiful woman. > In the Christian vernacular these are gifts from God. Right, but we do not have to use the gifts. We are free to ignore them and we all do from time to time. I have a friend who is diabetic and he usually takes pretty good care of himself, but occasionally he indulges in things he shouldn't even ignoring warnings from us. He pays the price the next day and berates himself for it. When asked why he did it he usually answers, "stupid, stupid, stupid!" God freely offers the gifts, but he doesn't force us to take them. Peace,
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Argy Lacedom		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4144 10/07/09 20:57:22 Camper	Hi Bob, > A matter of desire and will power, surely? But desire is a two-edged sword. I may desire to do the right thing, but I also may desire to enjoy the pleasure of an illicit affair with a beautiful woman. If you read my OP I said a desire to choose good. > In the Christian vernacular these are gifts from God. Right, but we do not have to use the gifts. We are free to ignore them and we all do from time to time. Ignoring them signifies insufficient desire, surely? "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company
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Argy Lacedom		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4145 10/07/09 21:44:16 Camper	Hi Bob, I just remembered you said this... Just to clarify a point. You cannot unknowingly sin. With God ignorance is an excuse. That is at odds with the story of Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They were punished by god despite the fact that they had no knowledge of good and evil until after they ate the forbidden fruit. "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company
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Burke		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4889 10/08/09 08:58:11 Camper	Hi Gary, > If you read my OP I said a desire to choose good. Sorry, you cannot drop one part of the equation. It is still a two edged sword. > Ignoring them signifies insufficient desire, surely? How so? We all do the wrong thing from time to time, which means, Christian or Atheist all human beings lack sufficient desire to do good. I would suggest that we do the wrong thing despite a desire to do good. Unless we get into a habit of doing certain things we normally feel bad after doing something we know is wrong. Peace,
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Burke		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4890 10/08/09 09:00:09 Camper	Hi Gary, > They were punished by God despite the fact that they had no knowledge of good and evil until after they ate the forbidden fruit. No, God told them not to eat the fruit, so they knew that eating the fruit was wrong, yet they did it anyway. Peace,
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Argy Lacedom		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4147 10/08/09 17:22:39 Camper	Hi Bob, No, God told them not to eat the fruit, so they knew that eating the fruit was wrong, yet they did it anyway. Can you explain how they knew it was wrong before they knew good what good was? Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company
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Argy Lacedom		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4148 10/08/09 17:30:57 Camper	Hi Bob, > If you read my OP I said a desire to choose good. Sorry, you cannot drop one part of the equation. It is still a two edged sword. I don't follow you. I am referring to the fact that one needs a desire to choose good over bad. I would suggest that we do the wrong thing despite a desire to do good. That's the central idea I'm trying to highlight. There might be a desire to do good, but it is insufficiently strong, or there is insufficient will power to carry it through. "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company
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Burke		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4895 10/10/09 10:27:33 Camper	Hi Gary, > Can you explain how they knew it was wrong before they knew good what good was? If you tell a three-year old not to touch the vase on the table, while that child does not yet know good and evil, they know that it is wrong to touch the vase because you told the it was wrong. They touch the vase and you punish them their lack of knowledge of good and evil notwithstanding. God told them it was wrong to eat of the fruit of that particular tree. Peace,
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Burke		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4896 10/10/09 10:36:49 Camper	Hi Gary, > I am referring to the fact that one needs a desire to choose good over bad. Not really, to choose is part of human nature. Free will is in our basic makeup. We are also creatures of habit. If we get into the habit of making bad choices, then we tend to continue to do so and vice versa, but we are always free to choose. > There might be a desire to do good, but it is insufficiently strong, or there is insufficient will power to carry it through. I would suggest that we start out with the requisite desire and will power, but there will be occasions when we will ignore those things. Some ignore them more than ours and more seriously than others. We are not perfect and will do wrong despite our desires and will power. Peace,
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Argy Lacedom		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4150 10/11/09 18:33:51 Camper	Hi Bob, > Can you explain how they knew it was wrong before they knew good what good was? If you tell a three-year old not to touch the vase on the table, while that child does not yet know good and evil, they know that it is wrong to touch the vase because you told the it was wrong. They touch the vase and you punish them their lack of knowledge of good and evil notwithstanding. God told them it was wrong to eat of the fruit of that particular tree. Are you suggesting that knowing right and wrong is a different thing to knowing good and evil? Even so, how could you know that right was good and wrong not good (or perhaps evil)? How could they know that punishment, death and disobedience were not good things? "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company
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Burke		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4897 10/12/09 08:56:28 Camper	Hi Gary, > Are you suggesting that knowing right and wrong is a different thing to knowing good and evil? Even so, how could you know that right was good and wrong not good (or perhaps evil)? How could they know that punishment, death and disobedience were not good things? Their knowledge of good and evil or lack thereof is irrelevant. Turning on a television set is not evil, but if I told you not to turn on a certain T.V. or you would be punished and you did your excuse that there is nothing evil about turning on a T.V. would not be defense. Peace,
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Argy Lacedom		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4151 10/12/09 18:01:40 Camper	You seem to be hung up on the word evil and seem to believe, despite the text of Genesis, that Adam and Eve had a concept of good and evil prior to them eating the fruit. In order to comprehend the meaning of an order, and then to act appropriately, a person must understand the consequences. If you have no idea what good is you cannot know that death and punishment are not good. Until you understand what good is you are ambivalent to it. Good or bad (not good) are not things that are desired or shunned. They are foreign concepts, perhaps bewildering. The threat of punishment relies on the fact that the person being threatened understands that the punishment, or the consequences, are not good things. If a person has no concept "good" and "not good" then a threat is meaningless. Even if god told Eve it was not a good idea to eat the fruit she had no idea what he was talking about. It would be like me telling my pet hamster that it shouldn't cross the road - sure I've warned it, but it has no idea what I was saying. So whose fault would it be if I let it out of its cage and it got squashed under a car, mine or the hamster's? The question remains; how could Adam and Eve have known that disobedience was "not good" prior to them gaining a knowledge of good by eating the fruit? "Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept that you're sincere in your belief. But not willing to believe that you're accurate." - Keith & Company Last Edited By: Argy Lacedom 10/13/09 01:27:21. Edited 1 time.
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