Is God constrained by logic? http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/topic/4799/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html en-us Copyright 2006, Yuku feeds@yuku.com (FeedMaster) webmaster@yuku.com (WebMaster) Fri, 01 May 2009 19:05:54 GMT Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:10:05 GMT Yuku Feeds 1.0 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss 60 Yuku http://static.yuku.com//feed/bypass/images/button-yuku.png http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/topic/4799/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html Yuku - free hosted forums and profiles 88 31 {pics-1.1 "http://www.icra.org/ratingsv02.html" l gen true for "http://yuku.com" r (nz 1 vz 1 lz 1 oz 1 cz 1 ) "http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html" l gen true for "http://yuku.com" r (n 0 s 0 v 0 l 0 )) Search Search Domain q http://yuku.com/search/direct/ <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43658/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43658 Is there a god? What is a god?

We cannot even comprehend the physical world, how can we posit the immaterial?

God ,as commonly defined, is a creation. If there is such an entity, it is beyond our imagination. ]]> feeds@yuku.com (tonydev) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43658 Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:10:04 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43554/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43554 I guess you're right. (I only watch Australian rules anyway image)


]]> feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43554 Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:53:47 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43538/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43538
I guess we just have agree to disagree. This is like a soccer team showing up to play a rugby team, nobody has any idea what the other is talking about.

Peace,
]]> feeds@yuku.com (Burke) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43538 Sun, 07 Jun 2009 20:40:21 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43536/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43536
So, unless success is guaranteed we do not have the freedom to choose? With all due respect, your defenses of your position are getting rather bizarre.
We have been over this ground before. If a guarantee of success is not needed for free will to exist then there is no reason God could not intervene AFTER a person has made a decision. The free will argument for... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43536 Sun, 07 Jun 2009 20:16:33 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43532/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43532
> She may choose to escape, but her free will is thwarted by the physical strength or her attacker.

So, unless success is guaranteed we do not have the freedom to choose? With all due respect, your defenses of your position are getting rather bizarre.

> Which just highlights the inconsistency of the argument that suffering is needed to get to heaven.

imageDid I not just... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Burke) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43532 Sun, 07 Jun 2009 08:35:46 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43528/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43528
The girl's free will has nothing to do with her being raped. Free will gives us choices, sometimes we have no choice such as being raped or hit be a car.
This just highlights another weakness of the free will argument. Contrary to what you say, the girl really does have a choice. She may choose to escape, but her free will is thwarted by the physical strength or her attacker. In the exchange one... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43528 Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:46:05 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43526/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43526
> But that cannot be correct - the little girl has free will and she was still raped.

The girl's free will has nothing to do with her being raped. Free will gives us choices, sometimes we have no choice such as being raped or hit be a car.

> That is very laudable, but those people are showing more empathy than God. The need for the organisation would hardly be necessary if a loving god intervened.

Your tape is on a continuous loop. I... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Burke) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43526 Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:16:18 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43524/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43524
Required to suffer is overstating the case. It is the part of our nature that we spend our lives trying to avoid, but in its way it makes us who we are.
In other words you are saying that we were deliberately designed to be "beings that sufferer". An omnipotent god could have done it differently. That is, unless you can show a causal relationship between suffering and... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43524 Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:59:08 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43517/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43517
> Instead you need to explain why it is that we are logically required to suffer.

Required to suffer is overstating the case. It is the part of our nature that we spend our lives trying to avoid, but in its way it makes us who we are. Let me give you an example: An acquaintance, who happened to command my old regiment, was born with a silver soon in his mouth. He is extremely intelligent, went to the best prep school and university in Canada. Academics came... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Burke) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43517 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:21:16 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43500/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43500
While the suffering of others may lead to empathy for them, it is our own suffering that makes us human.
That's circular reasoning. In effect you are defining humanity as "beings who sufferer". Instead you need to explain why it is that we are logically required to suffer. You need to explain why God had no option but to make a creature whose very... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43500 Thu, 04 Jun 2009 22:13:16 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43495/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43495
> I enjoy sex with my wife, but my pleasure isn't heightened by the knowledge that little girls have been raped.

You have misconstrued my meaning. While the suffering of others may lead to empathy for them, it is our own suffering that makes us human. The rape of a child is not meant to be, much less something that would enhance your sexual pleasure. I guess we could say there are two kinds of suffering, one that naturally comes to us with age or... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Burke) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43495 Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:38:22 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43486/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43486 > One can have a very fulfilling life without suffering.

Can we? At first blush the answer would seem to be obvious, but we do not have very much to measure it against. I think you're falling for a category error. There is nothing, so far as I know, that says suffering is a pre-requisite for joy,... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43486 Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:12:40 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43409/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43409
> One can have a very fulfilling life without suffering.

Can we? At first blush the answer would seem to be obvious, but we do not have very much to measure it against. There have been studies done in the U.S. with ordinary people who have won millions in the lottery. One's first reaction would be that they would find the majority to be happy, contented people. They were surprised at the number whose lives have been ruined by the win. My point is that we do... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Burke) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43409 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:02:43 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43375/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43375
The question was would we have a much more pleasant existence? Pleasant perhaps, but fulfilling? I doubt it.
You make it sound as if the two things are mutually exclusive. One can have a very fulfilling life without suffering. I don't know about you, but I'm sure I could have a very fulfilling life without rape, murder and natural disaster!


http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43375 Sun, 31 May 2009 21:42:34 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43366/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43366
> Of course we would. If you don't believe so you must believe there is no free will in heaven, where suffering does not exist. Perhaps heaven is full of zombies?
The question was would we have a much more pleasant existence? Pleasant perhaps, but fulfilling? I doubt it.

Do we have free will in heaven? I assume so, after all it is part of our nature. Could we choose to be somewhere else? I guess we could, but if you were at a five star hotel in Bali... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Burke) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43366 Sun, 31 May 2009 09:54:20 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43353/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43353
I tried to reply yesterday but yuku dumped all my work. Ughhh!

> We live within the constraints of our world. If one constraint was that God always intervened to prevent suffering we would have a much more pleasant existence, but that would not stop us exercising free will.

Would we?... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43353 Sat, 30 May 2009 19:46:46 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43333/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43333
> We live within the constraints of our world. If one constraint was that God always intervened to prevent suffering we would have a much more pleasant existence, but that would not stop us exercising free will.

Would we? I am reminded of the film version of H.G. Wells' The Time Machine back in the 50's or 60's. He goes forward in time and finds an idyllic society where one does not want for anything. He is overjoyed and asks to see the library and... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Burke) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43333 Fri, 29 May 2009 09:15:40 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43322/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43322
> On the contrary. Imagine the message that would be learned by God intervening in this way!

Human nature being what it is eventually we would stop making choices altogether.
Well, isn't that just another way for us to exercise free will??? feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43322 Thu, 28 May 2009 19:33:50 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43318/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43318
> On the contrary. Imagine the message that would be learned by God intervening in this way!

Human nature being what it is eventually we would stop making choices altogether. If you second guessed every decision your children made in their early lives you would be scratching your head wondering why they have no ambition or initiative at 30 years old.

> God does not thwart you by intervening after you have made the decision.

The problem is... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Burke) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43318 Thu, 28 May 2009 08:56:23 GMT <![CDATA[ Re: Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/reply/43299/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html#reply-43299
> Of course the logical conclusion to this is that there is no reason God cannot intervene to prevent suffering after a person has made his choice.

What would be the point? If there are no consequences to our actions, then no lesson is learned.
On the contrary. Imagine the message that would be... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/sreply/43299 Wed, 27 May 2009 19:21:53 GMT <![CDATA[ Is God constrained by logic? ]]> http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/topic/4799/t/Is-God-constrained-by-logic-.html this thread we were talking of the trinity. Burke said...

We could chase our tails around the pole on this one for eternity. You reject the theology and that is fine, but there is little profit in continuing this particular line in the thread.
It struck me that this sort of missed the point. It is one... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Argy Lacedom) http://catholicdiscussion.yuku.com/topic/4799 Fri, 01 May 2009 19:05:54 GMT